Episode 8 | A Journey into End-of-Life Care: The Role of Death Doulas

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Episode Notes

In today’s episode, Adam Zuckerman chats with Angelyn Frazer-Giles, a woman who wears many hats—founder of Heirloom Estate and Legacy Preservation, and President of the International End of Life Doula Association (INELDA). Angelyn has dedicated over 25 years to advocacy and end-of-life care, and her insights into the world of end-of-life doulas are nothing short of enlightening.

Angelyn shares what it truly means to be an end-of-life doula, guiding individuals and their families through one of life’s most challenging moments with compassion and care. She discusses the importance of preparing for the end of life, how cultural perspectives on death vary around the world, and how INELDA is working to educate and train more doulas every day.

This episode is not just about the logistics of death—it’s about embracing the journey, having those tough conversations, and finding peace in knowing your loved ones will be taken care of when the time comes. Angelyn also opens up about her personal story, from the sudden loss of her mother at a young age to her deep commitment to helping others navigate end-of-life planning with dignity.

Why Listen?

• Discover the powerful role of end-of-life doulas and how they provide comfort and support when it’s needed most.
• Understand the importance of being prepared for the end of life and how it can ease the burden on loved ones.
• Hear Angelyn’s heartfelt journey and the personal experiences that led her to this meaningful work.

Links

• INELDA: International End of Life Doula Association. Learn more about training and resources for doulas at www.INELDA.org.

About Angelyn Frazer-Giles

Angelyn Frazer-Giles, President of INELDA, trains end-of-life doulas and helps families plan for peaceful, dignified transitions and legacy preservation.

Transcript

Buried in Work Host 00:00

I'm your host Adam Zuckerman and today we have the honor of speaking with Angelyn Frazer-Giles. Angeline wears many hats. In addition to being the founder of Heirloom Estate and Legacy Preservation, she's also the president of the International End of Life Dula Association. That's INELDA for those that are unfamiliar. Angeline brings over 25 years of experience in advocacy and governance and end of life care. And that makes her an unbelievably powerful voice in the field. We're lucky to have you here today.

Welcome Angeline.

Angeline Fraser Giles 00:26

Thank you, Adam, so much. I'm really excited to be here.

Adam Zuckerman 00:30

It's gonna be a fun conversation. For those that aren't familiar with INELDA, let's start there. So you're the president of the organization. Can you tell us a little bit about the mission of INELDA and the work that you do?

Angeline Fraser Giles 00:42

Sure. So the mission of INELDA is to educate and train end of life doulas. That is the basic mission, to ensure that anyone who wants an end of life doula can have an end of life doula. And I think for us, the educational process is really important because of the fact that a lot of people, when they hear of doulas, they think birth doulas, which makes perfect sense because that is what we are accustomed to hearing about is birth doulas. And so when I tell people end of life doulas that there's actually, that's a thing, they tend to want to know more and they're very curious and end of life doula. I say, yeah, you you have a birth doula that comes in on the front end and

End of Life doulas are towards the tail end and they have very, very unique skills and abilities that just help people as they transition. And when I say help, it's helping the client transition in the best way possible. Death is a scary thing and I think that for a lot of people, having someone there that can kind of guide them through the process just makes it.

that much easier. So easier for not only the person who is dying but also for the family and friends who want to be there in support. our mission is to educate and train end of life doulas.

Adam Zuckerman 02:08

How many doulas are there in America?

Angeline Fraser Giles 02:11

My gosh, that's a good question. I don't know that there is an exact number but doulas are being trained every day and they're very various entities that actually go through the

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the training. we have probably in our membership base we have over 40 ,000 members, but that could be partially people who are really interested in being an end -of -life doula, interested in supporting the mission of Enelda, but also end -of -life doulas. And so

There's not like any one place where all of the doulas come and they register in their names or you can pull up their names anywhere, but there are thousands, thousands of doulas around the country and internationally we're seeing more and more doulas and we are the International End of Life Doula Association.

Adam Zuckerman 03:00

Is there an uptake in international or in America where there's a trend line where more people are gravitating toward the field or is it, no, it's pretty stagnant over the last decade or so?

Angeline Fraser Giles 03:12

No, I would definitely say that there is an uptick in people wanting to learn more about doulas as more and more people become doulas and talk about it. I think that there is definitely in the U .S. more and more people want to try to hire an end of life doula. What is interesting is internationally in certain countries, death is thought of differently than it is here in the United States, right? People a little bit more open and

accepting of what death means. Death to some people is, it's, you're setting that person free to go to whatever realm it is that you believe in, right? So, you know, in Mexico, for example, there's a day of the dead, like honoring the dead, people having weddings and ceremony, wedding ceremonies in funerals in, you know, Latin American countries and in other countries in Italy. And it's just the way that

that death is thought of internationally is a little different than here in the US. But I think that because of the fact that we had this major pandemic that happened and people were dying by the minute, right? Everywhere. People were dying in hospitals and hospice in their homes that people started really trying to understand a little bit more about what does that mean? What does death care mean? And how can I

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help my loved one, if I am alone in my home with my loved one, really getting people to understand you don't have to move the body right away. You can sit with that person and pray over them, play music over them, invite people over. I mean, that is what we did before there was this industry that said you had to come, had to call 911, pick up the body, like all of those things.

there were things that were happening prior to the industry, let's say. And I'm not downing the industry by any means because it's necessary in many instances. But when we had what you would call parlors, remember we used to say parlors, or we didn't, because I'm a little younger than the folks who would say parlors. But the parlor became the funeral parlor.

you know and so i think for us internationally looking at how other people look at death it's it's a little different than then what we do but definitely more and more people are becoming interested in wanting to become end of life do this

Adam Zuckerman 05:53

Doing some quick math so if you have forty thousand members you're the international organization will will say that because you're based in united states the majority are in the u .s. so yes at forty thousand fifty states that's eight hundred people per state, which is a good amount, but let's say you're international, which you are, so let's say we have 500, square number, round number, just to say.

Those 500 individuals per state, what does that process look like for them to become a doula? Is it like a doctor or a nurse where you have to get a certification, or could my sister, if she wanted to take a few exams or read a few things and go, you know what, I'm hanging a shingle, I'm now a doula?

Angeline Fraser Giles 06:32

Well, there, there is, there's a little bit more involved in, just like saying you're going to just take a, take a course or something. There is a training that we do. We do both online and in -person trainings. Of course, during the pandemic, everything was online. and we have generally it's a three day training that people go through and we go through various modules. actually just redid our curriculum to make it a little bit more culturally competent so that when folks come to do our training, they understand that there's no telling who's gonna pick up the phone and call you, right?

It could be you are a black doula in the Midwest and someone picks up the phone and they're in desperate need of having someone come and sit with a family member and that family member could die at any time. And I think that

For folks who want to become an end of life doula, there's not a agency per se that just says, okay, you're certified. We do the training and you go through competencies to make sure that you are going and doing no harm. You can go and do some training with some, with other doulas. We always recommend people maybe do some just volunteering at a hospice so that you get to understand people. And yeah, it's,

I wouldn't say it's simple and easy, but there's not like, you can't just say, okay, I'm just gonna become a doula. But if you do wanna become a doula, it's not this long winded process because what it is, it's about the heart. And then it's about making sure that you are doing what you need to do for that client.

Adam Zuckerman 08:19

How do people typically find a doula? Do doulas register in a database? know that Inelda has a...

We have a that we're building on at Buried in Work. But the reality is that oftentimes when people get to that point, they may not be familiar with what a doula is. They might not know that INELDA even looks, so they might not find it. Do doulas typically align themselves with hospitals, with doctors, with hospice, palliative care? Or is it really kind of the Wild West right now, so to speak?

Angeline Fraser Giles 08:48

Yeah, I wouldn't say it's the Wild West. There are doulas that will be referred by

word of mouth because some, you know, they, someone had a family member that had that particular doula. A lot of doulas do go into hospice care and, and partner with other organizations so that they know that they exist palliative care centers. So I think that it's not the wild world West and the way people say, well, I have no idea where to, where to find a doula. Because sometimes if you, if you've never heard of an end of life doula before and you get to that,

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point where you think I just need some help. There are a lot of resources out there where folks can find a doula entity, right? And then from that, so you're looking for an elder, then from there you just go through the directory and then find a doula. But a lot of it is people partnering with other agencies and a lot of it is word of mouth.

Adam Zuckerman 09:44

So this is something that I found really interesting. People don't die on a schedule.

Truth you don't have that timetable of at three o 'clock on a Tuesday. It's your time. When do you call a doula? When do they get involved? How do they get paid? Are they there 24 hours? It's such a foreign concept of this person's gonna be walking me through something because when someone's having a baby I'm going to labor call the call the doula they're gonna come over and help but I don't have a timetable for when someone's gonna take their last breath

You don't and so in many respects, if you know, in fact, like some people will call a doula because let's say they just, got a diagnosis and the diagnosis is not good. And they know that the end is near. Right. So at that point you could call, call in a doula because the doula would be with the family overall. The doula would say, okay, I'm going to take this person as a client and be with that person over the course of their, the, you know, their end of life span.

And the doula is not necessarily there at the house 24 hours, but it really depends on what the family needs and what the client needs in terms of what they need them to do. They just need a doula there to run errands because there's like medications that have to be picked up or, you know, kids have to be picked up from school or whatever the case is. So it's running errands. It's sitting with that client so that family members can go do other things, right?

So a lot of families are working and maybe they have to go to work for part of the day. And so the doula is there to just make sure that they're comfortable. The doula does not administer any medicine.

So I just want folks to be clear about that, the doula is not a doctor or a nurse unless the person is a registered nurse and becomes a doula. That's different. But most doulas are not necessarily registered nurses or doctors. They are there to provide that support to the client and family. So in that respect, you know, know, when the person, the person is probably gonna die within six months, five months, something like that. And so you would call them in at that time. If in fact things happen.

because people die all the time and like you said, there's no time schedule. None of us know when we're gonna leave. We just know we are gonna leave. You can still call a doula because there are things that the doula can do, right? If you are just a family member who just is completely overwhelmed.

with everything that has to get done. And let's say you are the only person or you're one of two people and maybe you have a brother that's in another state and you're there with a family member, call in a doula and have them do some of the things that you know that you can't do. The doula is trained to be able to call funeral homes and help guide you through the process of the things that maybe your loved one wanted or do you know that your loved one...

wanted some doulas help write obituaries, you know, just like take down notes of what did this person like, what did they enjoy? Did they like music? Did they like, you know, skiing, whatever. So the doula can do a variety of different things to help support the client and family. So I would just say at whatever point, whatever stage it is, you can definitely reach out to a doula.

Adam Zuckerman 12:59

We need to come up with like doulas capabilities checklist that we can add to the directories. And I need a doula, I can do this, this, this, and this and educate people really

Angeline Fraser Giles

Well that would be aninteresting way to look at it. Yeah, can do all those. Let's do all those things.

Adam Zuckerman 13:13

Let's do it. How much does it cost?

Angeline Fraser Giles 13:16

It depends. Each doula, was going to say, each doula sets their own price. And it's really based on what they charge. I would say there's no limit. But there's no entity that is telling them you have to charge this amount of money, right? We have a particular doula, someone who I know who doesn't charge at all. Does it as a service? Does it as a service? Because knowing that there are people out there in need and so they'll just do it as service. Some have a sliding scale depending on the resources of whoever's calling, but it is, a way for some doulas to make a earn a living. A lot of doulas do work full time and this is what they do.

Some this is part time work for them and they do it because they care. So it just really depends.

Adam Zuckerman 14:13

Are there doula booking companies? So we're gonna say that instead of being a I'm a sole proprietor doing it on my own out of the goodness of my heart or side gig to full time.

But now there is a company that has six doulas or 20 doulas and you call them and they dispatch.

Angeline Fraser Giles 14:28

I have not heard of that. That's an interesting concept. have not heard of company that is dispatching in that way.

14:37

And now there's new international doula dispatch agency, something like that. We can come up with that later.

Angeline Fraser Giles 14:43

That would be extra work for our executive director who I don't think would appreciate that much.

Adam Zuckerman 14:47

Yeah, no, we'll make that a paid internship. Now, you mentioned that there's doulas out there that are doing this out of the goodness of their heart for whatever that personal reason might be. And I imagine that so many of the 40 ,000 members that you all work with and support have personal reasons for doing this. And it really gives back to themselves, makes them whole. What's that for you? What's your personal journey? Where did you start? And how did you get to where you are?

Angeline Fraser Giles 15:17

Wow.

I wish I knew exactly how it started. I think I have a fairly good idea. I was nine years old when my mother died suddenly. And this was 1975. So just figure out how old I am. And we were in Honduras, which is where she grew up. Her mother and father were from Honduras in Central America. And we were there on vacation and she and one of my older sisters had gone to a city and my mom had a very massive heart attack. So you can imagine in 1975 in a developing nation, them being in another city, then the younger kids were, and my other, and my aunt, and my step -grandmother trying to maneuver in a country in which my sisters didn't speak Spanish, my mom did but my sisters didn't. Trying to manage in a country, getting a body from one place to another was harrowing. was a tough experience for them.

And I remember the day before I heard that my mother died, we had gone, left my grandmother's house and we were walking around in the neighborhood and came across a casket shop. And for whatever reason, we're young kids. walk through the casket shop because the doors were like open and you could just from the street, you just walk in. It's not like here where you go in and you're greeted and they bring you and they show you different caskets.

This is a developing nation. We walk in, there's caskets there. And I remember, and I wrote this in my journal, seeing this small casket the size of for a baby or a small child.

Adam Zuckerman 17:04

It's heavy. I said, wow, what would it be to bury such a young baby. And then we left the casket shop and we were just hanging out in the neighborhood. And the next morning, I heard my aunt on the phone saying, Sally's dead.

My mother's name was Celestine and Sally's dead. And I always would wake up, but I would lay in bed and just think even as a child, we just think and I still do that today. So no one knew that I knew.

And it took like the process of the day for finally, and I still don't know who told me that my mother was dead, but I knew, cause I had heard earlier and I just pretended like I didn't know. And I remember when her body finally made it to the city that we were in, we didn't have her body in a funeral home. We had it at my grandmother's house and there were two cauldrons of ice underneath the casket, keeping the body cool. And

To this day, I think about that. I think about, people die at home or people can have a funeral at home. And I started just doing more research probably as I got older into my late 30s, just about the process of what you do. And it wasn't probably until somewhere around 2019, 2018 that someone actually told me about death doulas. Cause I had always had in my mind that I wanted to try to help people with their end of life care, not specifically.

doula because I didn't know what that meant. But end of life care planning, planning ahead having your will done, you know, ensuring that that people knew where things were like, what did you want to give away? And I always just had this feeling like this is what people should be doing, right? Because my mom didn't have a will. And now years later, when I found out about end of life, do I decided the height of the pandemic, pandemic, because that's what you do, right?

You become a doula at the height of the pandemic. Of course. That's what you do. And so I became an end of life doula and went through the training online and but I still had in my mind that I wanted to help people really with end of life, not specifically sitting with someone who's dying. I didn't think that that's something that I wanted to do. But definitely helping people with end of life planning. And so I think from just that story being nine and

going into a funeral home, so to speak, and seeing my mother in the house, like all these things, they're just, things are just connecting. My mother not having a will. several years ago, I found out my father who, my biological father who died in 1988 did not have a will. Subsequent to that, sister, one of his daughters who lived with him passed away in 2019. And it set off this just,

amazing avalanche of things, because my father did not have his wife's name on the deed of the house. It's and it's just, I am now the administrator of the estate. died in 1988. So my passion is really trying to help people to talk about it in a you know, and to not be afraid because it's going to happen. And get people thinking about, okay, what does happen? If I have kids, what happens to my kids?

Buried in Work Host (20:25.002)

Mm -hmm, because my mom didn't have a will so I was left to my sisters luckily wanted to raise me but had had that not happened I would have become possibly if I didn't have a father's ward of the state in foster care, know So all of these things that people don't think about so that's my long trajectory of how I got to this.

Adam Zuckerman 20:47

And the story, it resonates with so many listeners and so many people that have reached out to Bury It In Work. I only two thirds of Americans, or two thirds of Americans don't have a will. And they find themselves dealing with these situations without the background at a time that is, quite frankly, stressful, that there's other things that they would rather be focusing on. When someone's on their deathbed, you don't want to say, do you have a will? You want to ask them and have conversations about them, not the logistics. So if you're listening.

Get your stuff in order.

Angeline Fraser Giles 21:15

Get your stuff in order.

Get it in order is a peace of mind for those who are left behind. then no one has to second guess what you wanted. They know, you know, and where you want your things to go. I mean, things are things, you know, they're just whatever. But you just want to make sure that you have things in order, particularly if you have young kids.

Where are your kids going? If something happens to you, if you're married, a couple, and something happens to both of you, where do the kids go?

Adam Zuckerman 21:46

And listeners, you can take care of that in your will with a guardianship designation. the side of our state preparation package box, it says, leave your heirs the gift of organization.

Angeline Fraser Giles 21:57

It's perfect. Perfect.

Adam Zuckerman 21:58

That's what it is.

Angeline Fraser Giles 21:59

That is what it is.

Adam Zuckerman 22:01

Before you... you started this trajectory of your life, which has impacted so many people and is making a tremendous difference. You had a background in human rights policy and advocacy. And I almost see this parallel about that previous life, which you're still involved in, with helping people advocate for themselves at the end of the life with estate planning. Have you recognized that trend and that correlation, or is that something that's a little bit surprising in that characterization?

Angeline Fraser Giles 22:32

Yeah, I wouldn't say that it is it's surprising.

Guess there that would be almost kind of a natural trajectory. My mother was very involved with helping people. She was she was a force. There was a hurricane in Honduras in 1974. I believe it was Fifi. And our house became under central where people were just bringing clothes and the government was giving us medicine and to get it all to Honduras.

We had blankets and all kinds of things in the basement of our house. And so I got that organizing kind of helping people, think from her, that bug from her. As I tell my family, I'm the only person who worked nonprofit. I am the only one in my family. And always been, you know, interested in human rights and civil rights and advocacy and helping and volunteering and doing all the things. And I think just because of that, I have moved into this place where I'm still helping people, I'm still working nonprofit, still believe in making sure that people can live decent lives, right?

And that the work that I do in my full -time job, while it's different than what I do as a my passion project, I'm still helping people. And I just see that it's all about that. It is all about ensuring that people have the resources that they need to get done what they need to get done, I feel as if the work that I'm doing, really to be totally honest, I got into this work because I saw so many black families not having their stuff together. I've been to too many funerals where people just, their stuff wasn't together, and there's crowdsourcing to pay for funerals, and it's just like, if we just planned a little bit ahead, you know?

Even with a little bit of money, if we just planned a little bit and getting people to think outside of, okay, well, I don't want to talk about that, you know, because it's going to happen. Yeah, it's going to happen. I I happen tomorrow, but it's going to happen. And also with a lot of folks really believing in God and just God will make a way. And I believe that I'm Christian, but I also feel like God helps the child who has its own and does the work. Right. So.

Let's just, and so I just see that as part of the work is making sure that I'm getting the message out to as many people as possible. And it's so important. As a side note, you're right, it was Hurricane Fifi, now known as Hurricane Orlean. Over 8 ,000 people were killed in Honduras September 1974. And at the time it was the third deadliest Atlantic hurricane on record. Can you imagine? Can you imagine? Unbelievable. And somehow my mother, who was

was able to get barrels of goods over to Honduras. I don't know how she did it. We still don't know how she did it. How she did it. It's a strong woman.

Adam Zuckerman 25:32

Now that resonates, that story resonates with me a lot. So my mom and my dad had a great relationship. were together 52 years in love, know, best friends, like the storybook, you know, relationship that a lot of people wish they had. But my mom was also of a generation where there were a lot of traditional family values where my dad...

took care of lot of finances, she knew what was going on, but I just don't have to go and pay that bill because Andy's going to take care of it. And after everything happened, I realized after doing some research that women in America are outliving men by an average of 5 .8 years, which means that as the boomers age, that there's going to be an entire generation, just like you mentioned with the black community, where people just aren't as on top of the situation as they could be. And that's really what we're trying to do.

Is help people avoid these challenges and it's not complicated. And whoever you are, if you're listening, get your stuff in order. It's not difficult. You just need to do it.

Angeline Fraser Giles 26:32

It's not. What it is is it's scary for people. It's not the difficulty. It's scary to sit down with your family members and to say, okay, what do you want? What do you want your obituary to say? There's nothing worse than a family getting together to write an obituary. And while they think they know that person, they really don't. They really don't. There's there's so many things that get left out. People's names are spelled incorrectly. Children from the first marriage are left off the the program. It's just insanity. And and I think just learning how to sit and talk, you don't have to say, Okay, I want to sit and talk about your will.

You just sit and have a conversation with your mom or your dad or your uncle and just get some basic information. I went to see two cousins in New York last week who both in facilities and the second cousin I went to see, I've knew him since I was a little girl and I just started asking him questions and writing things down. Things that I just, didn't know. Like I didn't know when he was born.

I didn't know how old he was, just started asking him questions. And because you have family members who are unfortunately going to have dementia and they're going to start losing those memories, just start talking to people. I think we're just afraid to sit down and just have a basic conversation. You do not have to say, I want to sit down and write your will. I want to sit down and write your obituary. Just say, can we just sit down? I want to learn a little bit more about where'd you go to school?

Were you in the military? Like their families that don't even know that their family members were in the military, you know, or where they went to school or how many brothers and sisters that they had, you know, if they're folks. So I just, think it's the fear, but I think we have to get over the fear because when you start to think about where your possessions go and you think, okay, it's the government is gonna make that decision on where.

things go, the government is gonna make the decision on where your kids go. So is that really what you wanna do? Don't you wanna have some control, some agency over your life while you're here and your death when you're gone? So let's stop being afraid. just.

Adam Zuckerman 28:53

I literally have goosebumps. People on video, my hair's standing up. You were describing the card games that Buried in Work made.

one more story and nothing left unsaid. One more story is like six different categories, prompts of questions. If you had an extra hour every day, what would you want to do? Where did you grow up? Tell me one time one more story about this and nothing left unsaid is do you have a will? This is what interstate is. It's amazing. You're literally describing one of the things that we think is so important for people to focus on. I love it. I love it. Goosebumps.

Angeline Fraser Giles 29:31

I love doing the work and I love talking to people. me, I had a client, this is not a for a doula situation. This is just someone who I was trying to help with just, okay, look, the basics. Let's just do some of the basics. And they didn't have a will. And it was a friend of mine who's who, who hired me to help with her parents. Cause here's the other thing. If you are a child and you have parents who are aging, they don't want to talk to you about wills. They don't.

But they will talk to other people about, or they will at least listen to other people. So even if you have to bring me in to have like be the mediator and talk about, okay, this is why it's important. And I use my own case example, the mess that I'm in right now because of my father's estate. So called me in and went through some things and we're trying to like just get some bills kind of lowered and things like that. And I just had real good rapport with them.

Another called me like maybe after I after they were no longer my clients. She sent me this message. You know, she sent me a text that because I referred them to a lawyer in their jurisdiction that could do their their will. We got our will done never told my friend who hired me to help them. Dale was just talking I was like, you know, your parents do the will they did. They did. Yeah. How do they talk about it? They they did. Yes, they did.

So I just say, if you can't have the conversation with your parents, because they don't want to have the conversation, just find an intermediary to help have the conversation. Burydenwerke can help you with that. Come to the resources page. There's a section that says, start the conversation with your parents. Definitely.

Adam Zuckerman 31:17

All right. Now, the future of INELDA, there's a lot you guys are working on. There's a lot you want to have happen. What are your goals moving forward?

Angeline Fraser Giles 31:25

Oh so many goals. Well, we just.

We did the curriculum, as I mentioned, make it just, it is just a great curriculum. So I highly, highly recommend it. And we are bringing on more board members. have a board retreat in October. We are doing additional outreach to hospice and prisons. And because people are dying in prisons also, you know, in my work, because I did criminal justice work, people are dying in prison and they're they're not let them out cause they're dying.

And so training people inside on how to be doulas to dying people inside is just, I'm just really excited about that work. So many other things that are in the work. have online sessions, we have in -person sessions, we are developing like mentorships within the doula community, just a lot of different things that we're doing. So I highly recommend that you come to our website, check us out, donate, of course.

That's always the thing, right? Is a nonprofit raising money. So. Right.

Adam Zuckerman 32:30

If people want to find Inelda, if they want to donate, what is the website so they can find it?

Angeline Fraser Giles 32:35

It is I E L D A I N as in Nancy E L as in Larry D A dot org. Dot org. Inelda dot org.

Adam Zuckerman 32:46

Angeline, this has been phenomenal. I have one more question for you. You've been around the block. You've seen a lot. You've done a few of these podcasts before, a few interviews.

What's the one question that people don't ask you that you always end with and go, you know what, ever asked me this question. What's that?

Angeline Fraser Giles 33:03

I would probably say no one ever asks me what is my end of life plan.

Adam Zuckerman 33:11

What's your end of life plan, Angeline? I'm really curious.

Angeline Fraser Giles 33:16

So my end of life plan is, well, I'm married. my husband and I have a house and cars and I don't have any biological children. have children. He has children. And so our end of life plan is to make sure that they're okay. If both of us leave at one time or or if if he leaves that I make sure that they're they're okay. And I want a party. I have written part of my obituary because trust my family doesn't know. They don't know what I've done.

So I've done that and I have a lot of things in order. yeah, that's I think no one's ever asked me, what's your end of life plan? So that would be it.

Adam Zuckerman 34:08

All right. So finish writing that obituary.

Angeline Fraser Giles 34:11

Well, I'm not gone yet.

Adam Zuckerman 34:13

Not yet, but know, it's kind of like a will. It's kind of like a will. You draft your estate plan.

Angeline Fraser Giles 34:19

And then you have to go back and look at it and say, did I really want to leave them that? I don't like them that much now. Take that out.

Adam Zuckerman 34:26

The codicil to your own obituary. think it's a new thing too. Lots of ideas today. All right, Angeline, this has been fantastic. I really appreciate you taking the time and I wish you and INELDA the best.

Angeline Fraser Giles 34:38

Thank you so much. I really appreciate you inviting me.

Great conversation.

Adam Zuckerman 34:43

Thanks so much. Take care.

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